Asbestos Podcast EP20 Transcript
Episode 20: The Less Said About Asbestos, the Better
Full transcript from Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making — a 52-episode documentary podcast produced by Danziger & De Llano, LLP.
| Episode Information | |
|---|---|
| Series | Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making |
| Season | 1 |
| Episode | 20 |
| Title | The Less Said About Asbestos, the Better |
| Arc | Arc 5 — The Conspiracy Begins (Episode 1 of 5 — Arc Premiere) |
| Produced by | Charles Fletcher |
| Research and writing | Charles Fletcher with Claude AI |
| Listen | Apple Podcasts · Spotify · Amazon Music |
Episode Summary
On October 1, 1935, Sumner Simpson — president of Raybestos-Manhattan, the second-largest asbestos manufacturer in America — wrote a letter to Vandiver Brown, general counsel at Johns-Manville, the largest.[1] Competitors, writing to each other about a shared problem: asbestosis. A trade magazine editor in Philadelphia had been asking questions for years, wanting to publish something about asbestos disease. Simpson's advice: "I think the less said about asbestos, the better off we are."[1] Those seven words would appear in thousands of lawsuits and cost the asbestos industry billions. They survived because Simpson kept personal copies of his correspondence in a locked vault — approximately 6,000 documents that would not be discovered until 1977, forty-two years later.[2] But the letter was not the beginning of the conspiracy. The beginning was 1929, when Anna Pirskowski filed the first asbestos personal injury lawsuit in American history against Johns-Manville.[3] The case settled in 1933 for $30,000 split among 11 plaintiffs — approximately $2,727 each — while their attorney, Samuel Greenstone, was permanently barred from bringing future asbestos cases against the corporation.[4] By 1935, the industry had established the full suppression template: settle cheaply, silence the attorney, edit the science, censor the trade press, and coordinate strategy between competitors. Dr. Anthony Lanza's 1935 study showing 87% fibrosis in workers with 15+ years of exposure had the sentence "It is possible for uncomplicated asbestosis to result fatally" deleted before publication at industry request.[5] U.S. asbestos production increased 440% between 1930 and 1950 while these suppression strategies were in effect.[6]
Key Takeaways
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Key Concepts
The Pirskowski Lawsuit and the Settlement Template
Anna Pirskowski worked at the Johns-Manville plant in Manville, New Jersey — a company town where Johns-Manville had moved in 1912, built a 186-acre facility, and at its peak employed 4,500 workers (40% of the town's workforce).[3] She left in 1922 due to lung disease and filed suit in 1929, alleging the company "failed to provide a safe work environment with proper ventilation or protective masks." Her surname suggests Polish or Eastern European heritage, consistent with the immigrant workforce at Manville. Eventually eleven plaintiffs joined; their names do not survive in accessible records.[3]
In November 1933, Johns-Manville's Executive Committee passed a resolution "authorizing the president of the Corporation to enter into negotiations for the settlement of any actions now pending or which may be hereafter brought against the Corporation by former employees founded upon alleged injury or disease resulting from their employment."[4] This was not a one-time settlement — it was the creation of a system for handling future claims. The $30,000 settlement ($2,727 per plaintiff, approximately $68,000 in 2025 dollars) came with a gag order on attorney Samuel Greenstone that effectively ended his ability to practice asbestos law.[4]
The Simpson-Brown Correspondence
The correspondence between Sumner Simpson and Vandiver Brown — executives at the two largest competing asbestos companies — demonstrates coordinated suppression across corporate boundaries.[1] Simpson consulted Brown on how to respond to Miss Rossiter's requests to publish on asbestosis. His full letter read: "I think the less said about asbestos, the better off we are, but at the same time, we cannot lose track of the fact that there have been a number of articles on asbestos dust control and asbestosis in the British trade magazines. The magazine Asbestos is in business to publish articles affecting the trade and they have been very decent about not re-printing the English articles."[1] Simpson praised Rossiter for self-censoring and framed the industry's position as reasonable rather than suppressive. This was not a single incident but part of an ongoing exchange in which competitors coordinated messaging about asbestos disease.
The Lanza Study and Scientific Censorship
Dr. Anthony Lanza (born 1884) was Associate Medical Director of the Industrial Hygiene Division at Metropolitan Life Insurance Company — "one of the discoverers of silicosis" with impeccable credentials.[5] Starting around 1930, Lanza and colleagues studied workers at five asbestos plants and mines in the U.S. and Canada. The dose-response findings were definitive: 43% fibrosis at 5 years of exposure, 50% at 5-10 years, 58% at 10-15 years, and 87% at 15+ years.[5] Court documents confirm that Johns-Manville attorney Vandiver Brown and George S. Hobart requested "material alterations that would minimize the disease process and its seriousness." The specific sentence deleted before publication: "It is possible for uncomplicated asbestosis to result fatally."[5] By removing this sentence, the published version obscured the fact that asbestosis alone — without complications — could kill.
The Discovery of the Sumner Simpson Papers
Sumner Simpson kept personal copies of his correspondence locked in a vault at Raybestos-Manhattan headquarters.[2] Simpson died in 1953. The papers stayed in the vault. In 1969, they were moved to a closet in his son's office. In 1974, moved again. In 1977 — forty-two years after the key letters were written — they were produced in response to a discovery request in a New Jersey lawsuit. The approximately 6,000 documents contained executive correspondence, research contracts, settlement agreements, and trade publication communications spanning the 1920s through 1940s.[2] The judge who reviewed them wrote that they showed "a conscious effort by the industry in the 1930s to downplay, or arguably suppress, the dissemination of information to employees and the public for the fear of promotion of lawsuits." These documents became the foundation for most subsequent asbestos litigation and established that the industry's suppression was coordinated policy, not individual negligence.[2]
Named Entities
Historical Figures
| Individual | Role/Affiliation | Significance |
|---|---|---|
| Anna Pirskowski | Former worker, Johns-Manville plant, Manville, NJ | Filed the first asbestos personal injury lawsuit in American history (1929); one of 11 plaintiffs who split $30,000 settlement |
| Samuel Greenstone | Attorney, Newark, NJ | Represented all 11 Pirskowski plaintiffs; permanently barred from asbestos litigation as condition of settlement; disappears from historical record after 1933 |
| Sumner Simpson | President, Raybestos-Manhattan | Author of the defining October 1, 1935 letter; kept 6,000 documents in locked vault; died 1953 |
| Vandiver Brown | General Counsel, Johns-Manville | Simpson's correspondent; coordinated suppression strategy; told Roemer "Yes. We save a lot of money that way" about letting workers die |
| A.S. Rossiter ("Miss Rossiter") | Editor, Asbestos magazine, Stover Publishing Company, Philadelphia | Self-censored disease reporting for years at industry request; wrote "naturally your wishes have been respected" |
| Dr. Anthony Lanza | Associate Medical Director, Industrial Hygiene Division, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company | Conducted 1935 study showing 87% fibrosis at 15+ years; study was edited at industry request before publication |
| George S. Hobart | Attorney | Together with Vandiver Brown, requested "material alterations" to Lanza's study to minimize disease severity |
| Charles Roemer | Former executive, Unarco | Gave 1984 deposition describing early 1940s meeting where Brown admitted letting workers die to save money |
Organizations and Companies
- Johns-Manville Corporation — Largest asbestos manufacturer in America; defendant in Pirskowski lawsuit; employer of Vandiver Brown; operated 186-acre plant in Manville, NJ employing 4,500 workers.[3]
- Raybestos-Manhattan — Second-largest asbestos manufacturer; Sumner Simpson served as president; headquarters in Bridgeport, Connecticut; source of the Sumner Simpson Papers.[1]
- Unarco — Asbestos company; Charles Roemer's former employer; connected to the "dropped dead" deposition testimony.[8]
- Stover Publishing Company — Philadelphia publisher of Asbestos magazine (since 1919); Miss Rossiter served as editor; complied with industry censorship requests.[7]
- Metropolitan Life Insurance Company — Employer of Dr. Anthony Lanza; Industrial Hygiene Division conducted the 1935 asbestos worker study.[5]
- Danziger & De Llano, LLP — Nationwide mesothelioma law firm producing this podcast series; recovered nearly $2 billion for families affected by asbestos exposure over 30+ years.[9]
Locations
- Manville, New Jersey — Company town named after Johns-Manville; 186-acre facility; 4,500 workers (40% of town workforce); Anna Pirskowski's workplace
- Newark, New Jersey — Location of Samuel Greenstone's law practice; where Pirskowski lawsuit was filed
- Bridgeport, Connecticut — Raybestos-Manhattan headquarters; where Simpson wrote the October 1, 1935 letter
- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania — Location of Stover Publishing Company and Asbestos magazine
Notable Quotes
|
"I think the less said about asbestos, the better off we are." — Sumner Simpson, President of Raybestos-Manhattan, in letter to Vandiver Brown, October 1, 1935[1] "Yes. We save a lot of money that way." — Vandiver Brown, General Counsel of Johns-Manville, when asked if he'd let workers die rather than warn them (per Charles Roemer deposition, 1984)[8] "Always you have requested that for certain obvious reasons we publish nothing, and, naturally your wishes have been respected." — A.S. Rossiter, Editor of Asbestos magazine, to Sumner Simpson, September 25, 1935[7] "[They] suggested to Dr. Anthony Lanza that Lanza publish his study on textile workers with material alterations that would minimize the disease process and its seriousness." — Court documents describing Vandiver Brown and George S. Hobart's intervention in the Lanza study[5] "A conscious effort by the industry in the 1930s to downplay, or arguably suppress, the dissemination of information to employees and the public for the fear of promotion of lawsuits." — Judge reviewing the Sumner Simpson Papers, 1977[2] |
Timeline
| Date | Event | Significance |
|---|---|---|
| 1912 | Johns-Manville moves to Manville, NJ; builds 186-acre facility | Creates company town; eventually employs 4,500 workers (40% of local workforce) |
| 1919 | Asbestos magazine begins publication by Stover Publishing | Trade publication later complicit in suppressing asbestosis reporting |
| 1922 | Anna Pirskowski leaves Johns-Manville plant due to lung disease | Worker forced out by illness years before filing suit |
| 1929 | Anna Pirskowski files first American asbestos personal injury lawsuit | First asbestos lawsuit in U.S. history; alleged failure to provide safe work environment |
| November 1933 | Johns-Manville Executive Committee authorizes settlement system | Created protocol for future settlements, not just the Pirskowski case |
| 1933 | 11 plaintiffs settle for $30,000; Greenstone agrees to gag order | $2,727 per plaintiff (~$68,000 in 2025 dollars); attorney permanently silenced |
| ~1930-1935 | Dr. Lanza studies workers at five asbestos plants | Finds 43-87% fibrosis rates depending on duration of exposure |
| 1935 | Industry requests "material alterations" to Lanza study | Sentence stating asbestosis could be fatal deleted before publication |
| September 25, 1935 | Miss Rossiter writes to Simpson confirming years of censorship | "Naturally your wishes have been respected" regarding suppression of disease reporting |
| October 1, 1935 | Simpson writes "the less said about asbestos, the better off we are" | The defining document — competitors coordinating suppression in writing |
| Early 1940s | Vandiver Brown admits "we save a lot of money that way" | Direct admission of policy to prioritize profit over workers' lives (per Roemer deposition) |
| 1953 | Sumner Simpson dies; papers remain in locked vault | 6,000 documents of corporate correspondence preserved |
| 1969 | Papers moved to closet in Simpson's son's office | Documents physically relocated but still hidden from public |
| 1977 | Sumner Simpson Papers discovered during litigation discovery | 42-year gap; judge finds evidence of conscious suppression |
| 1984 | Charles Roemer gives deposition about "dropped dead" conversation | 40+ year memory of Brown's admission becomes court testimony |
| 1930-1950 | U.S. asbestos production increases 440% | Suppression strategy enabled massive production expansion |
Statistics and Quantification
| Statistic | Value | Context/Source |
|---|---|---|
| Pirskowski settlement total | $30,000 | Split among 11 plaintiffs (1933) |
| Per-plaintiff settlement | $2,727 | Approximately $68,000 in 2025 dollars |
| Number of plaintiffs | 11 | Including Anna Pirskowski; 10 others unnamed in accessible records |
| Johns-Manville Manville, NJ facility | 186 acres | Employed 4,500 workers; 40% of town workforce |
| Fibrosis rate at 5 years exposure | 43% | Lanza study X-ray findings |
| Fibrosis rate at 5-10 years | 50% | Lanza study X-ray findings |
| Fibrosis rate at 10-15 years | 58% | Lanza study X-ray findings |
| Fibrosis rate at 15+ years | 87% | Lanza study X-ray findings; definitive dose-response relationship |
| Sumner Simpson Papers | ~6,000 documents | Executive correspondence, research contracts, settlement agreements (1920s-1940s) |
| Years papers were hidden | 42 years | 1935 (key letters) to 1977 (discovery in litigation) |
| U.S. production increase 1930-1950 | 440% | During active suppression period |
| Mesothelioma latency period | 20-50 years | Workers exposed decades ago still being diagnosed today |
| Available in asbestos trust funds | $30+ billion | For victims of occupational and secondary exposure |
| Average mesothelioma settlements | $1M-$2.4M | Range for qualified claimants |
| Episode runtime | ~24 minutes | Transcript length |
Frequently Asked Questions
When did corporations first know asbestos was dangerous?
By 1929, American asbestos companies knew enough to be sued. Anna Pirskowski's lawsuit against Johns-Manville alleged the company "failed to provide a safe work environment with proper ventilation or protective masks."[3] The $30,000 settlement in 1933 — which included a gag order preventing further lawsuits — demonstrates the company understood its legal exposure. By 1935, executives at competing companies were coordinating suppression strategies, with Sumner Simpson writing "the less said about asbestos, the better off we are."[1] For families affected by asbestos exposure, Danziger & De Llano has spent 30 years finding the documentation companies tried to hide.
What were the Sumner Simpson Papers?
The Sumner Simpson Papers are approximately 6,000 documents containing executive correspondence, research contracts, settlement agreements, and trade publication communications from the 1920s through 1940s.[2] Sumner Simpson, president of Raybestos-Manhattan, kept personal copies locked in a company vault. They were discovered in 1977 during litigation discovery — 42 years after the most damning letters were written. A judge ruled they showed "a conscious effort by the industry in the 1930s to downplay, or arguably suppress, the dissemination of information to employees and the public." These documents became the foundation for most subsequent asbestos lawsuits.
Who was the first attorney to sue an asbestos company in America?
Samuel Greenstone, a Newark, New Jersey attorney, represented Anna Pirskowski and 10 other workers in the first American asbestos personal injury lawsuit, filed in 1929 against Johns-Manville Corporation.[3][4] The case settled in 1933 for $30,000 split among 11 plaintiffs. As part of the settlement, Greenstone signed an agreement that he would not "directly or indirectly participate in the bringing of new actions against the Corporation." After 1933, Greenstone disappears from the historical record — no newspaper mentions, bar records, or obituary have been found.
How did asbestos companies edit scientific research?
Dr. Anthony Lanza's 1935 study of asbestos workers showed 87% of workers with 15+ years of exposure had radiographic evidence of lung fibrosis.[5] Before publication, Johns-Manville attorney Vandiver Brown and George S. Hobart requested "material alterations that would minimize the disease process and its seriousness." The sentence "It is possible for uncomplicated asbestosis to result fatally" was deleted from the published version. Lanza also objected to posting worker warning signs at a Johns-Manville facility because of the potential "legal situation."
What is the connection between 1930s corporate suppression and mesothelioma lawsuits today?
The 20-50 year latency period for mesothelioma means workers exposed in the 1970s, 1980s, and even 1990s are still being diagnosed today. The documents proving corporate knowledge from the 1930s — particularly the Sumner Simpson Papers — establish that companies knew asbestos was dangerous decades before they stopped using it.[2] This knowledge creates legal liability. Danziger & De Llano has recovered nearly $2 billion for asbestos victims using this documentary evidence. Over $30 billion remains available in asbestos trust funds for qualified claimants.
What compensation is available for mesothelioma victims?
Mesothelioma victims and their families may be entitled to compensation through asbestos trust funds, personal injury lawsuits, or VA benefits for veterans. Over $30 billion remains available in asbestos trust funds established by bankrupt asbestos companies. Average settlements range from $1 million to $2.4 million. Larry Gates, a Senior Client Advocate at Danziger & De Llano whose father died of mesothelioma, helps families navigate these options. For a free consultation, visit dandell.com.[9]
References
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 Sumner Simpson letter to Vandiver Brown, October 1, 1935. Simpson, president of Raybestos-Manhattan, wrote "I think the less said about asbestos, the better off we are" to the general counsel of Johns-Manville. Letter discovered among the Sumner Simpson Papers in 1977. See Asbestos Exposure, Danziger & De Llano.
- ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 Sumner Simpson Papers. Approximately 6,000 documents of executive correspondence, research contracts, and settlement agreements from the 1920s-1940s, kept in locked vault at Raybestos-Manhattan. Discovered 1977 during litigation discovery — 42 years after key letters. Judge found evidence of "a conscious effort by the industry in the 1930s to downplay, or arguably suppress, the dissemination of information." See Asbestos Exposure Information, Mesothelioma Lawyer Center.
- ↑ 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4 3.5 3.6 Anna Pirskowski v. Johns-Manville Corporation (1929). First asbestos personal injury lawsuit in American history. Filed in Newark, NJ; 11 plaintiffs from Johns-Manville's Manville, NJ plant (186-acre facility, 4,500 workers). Settled 1933 for $30,000. See What Products Contained Asbestos?, Mesothelioma.net.
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 Settlement agreement, Pirskowski v. Johns-Manville (1933). Attorney Samuel Greenstone agreed he would not "directly or indirectly participate in the bringing of new actions against the Corporation." Johns-Manville Executive Committee resolution authorized settlement of pending and future employee claims. See Mesothelioma Compensation, Danziger & De Llano.
- ↑ 5.0 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.7 Dr. Anthony Lanza study (circa 1935). Associate Medical Director, Industrial Hygiene Division, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. Studied workers at five asbestos plants and mines; found 43% (5yr), 50% (5-10yr), 58% (10-15yr), and 87% (15+yr) fibrosis rates. Brown and George S. Hobart requested "material alterations" before publication; sentence "It is possible for uncomplicated asbestosis to result fatally" was deleted. See Asbestos Exposure, Mesothelioma Lawyer Center.
- ↑ U.S. asbestos production statistics. Production increased approximately 440% between 1930 and 1950 during the period of active industry suppression of health information. See Mesothelioma Attorney.
- ↑ 7.0 7.1 7.2 A.S. Rossiter letter to Sumner Simpson, September 25, 1935. Editor of Asbestos magazine (Stover Publishing Company, Philadelphia, published since 1919). Wrote: "Always you have requested that for certain obvious reasons we publish nothing, and, naturally your wishes have been respected." See Asbestos Exposure, Danziger & De Llano.
- ↑ 8.0 8.1 8.2 Charles Roemer deposition (1984). Former Unarco executive described early 1940s meeting with Johns-Manville executives. Asked Vandiver Brown: "Do you mean to tell me you would let them work until they dropped dead?" Brown replied: "Yes. We save a lot of money that way." See What Products Contained Asbestos?, Mesothelioma.net.
- ↑ 9.0 9.1 Danziger & De Llano, LLP. Nationwide mesothelioma and asbestos disease law firm specializing in occupational injury litigation. 30+ years of practice; nearly $2 billion recovered for over 1,000 families. Produces "Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making" podcast series. Visit dandell.com or call (866) 222-9990 for free consultation.
External Resources
Government and Regulatory Sources
- OSHA Asbestos Standards — Occupational Safety and Health Administration
- EPA Asbestos Information — U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
- ATSDR Asbestos and Your Health — Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
- NCI Malignant Mesothelioma — National Cancer Institute
Asbestos Exposure and Health
- Asbestos Exposure — Danziger & De Llano
- Asbestos Exposure Information — Mesothelioma Lawyer Center
- What Products Contained Asbestos? — Mesothelioma.net
Compensation and Legal Resources
- Mesothelioma Compensation Guide — Danziger & De Llano
- Asbestos Trust Funds Guide — Mesothelioma Lawyer Center
- Asbestos Trust Funds — Mesothelioma.net
Podcast Resources
- Episode 20: Less Said About Asbestos — MLNM podcast landing page
- Asbestos Podcast Hub — All episodes and series information
- Asbestos: A Conspiracy on Apple Podcasts
- Asbestos: A Conspiracy on Spotify
Series Navigation
| Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making — Arc 5: The Conspiracy Begins | ||
|---|---|---|
| Previous: Episode 19: Two Prosecutions | Episode 20: The Less Said About Asbestos, the Better (Arc Premiere) | Next: Episode 21: The Asbestos Textile Institute |
Related Wiki Pages
- Asbestos_History_Timeline — Comprehensive timeline of asbestos from 4700 BCE to the 2024 EPA ban
- Asbestos_Occupational_Exposure_Quick_Reference — High-risk occupations and exposure statistics
- Asbestos_Trust_Fund_Quick_Reference — Compensation mechanisms for occupationally exposed workers
- Mesothelioma_Settlement_Quick_Reference — Settlement and verdict ranges for mesothelioma claims
- The_Asbestos_Podcast — Main podcast page with all episodes
About This Series
Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making is a 52-episode documentary podcast tracing the complete history of asbestos from 4700 BCE to the 2024 EPA ban. The series is produced by Danziger & De Llano, LLP, a nationwide mesothelioma law firm with over 30 years of experience and nearly $2 billion recovered for asbestos victims.
Episode 20 opens Arc 5 ("The Conspiracy Begins"), which traces the shift from passive negligence to active corporate conspiracy. While Arc 4 documented British regulatory failure, Arc 5 moves to America — where executives at competing companies wrote letters coordinating the suppression of medical evidence, the censorship of trade publications, and the silencing of attorneys. The Sumner Simpson Papers, 6,000 documents hidden for 42 years, prove that this was policy, not ignorance.
Approximately 3,000 Americans are diagnosed with mesothelioma each year.[1] Mesothelioma has a latency period of 20-50 years, meaning people exposed decades ago are still being diagnosed today. Over $30 billion remains available in asbestos trust funds for victims.
If you or a loved one were exposed to asbestos or have been diagnosed with mesothelioma, contact Danziger & De Llano for a free case evaluation. Call (866) 222-9990. Available seven days a week.
- ↑ Cite error: Invalid
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