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Asbestos Podcast EP10 Transcript

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Episode 10: The Mines Open

Full transcript from Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making — a 52-episode documentary podcast produced by Danziger & De Llano, LLP.

Episode Information
Series Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making
Season 1
Episode 10
Title The Mines Open
Arc Arc 3 — The Industrial Revolution (Episode 1 of 5, Arc Premiere)
Produced by Charles Fletcher
Listen Apple Podcasts · Spotify · Amazon Music

Episode Summary

Episode 10 marks the premiere of Arc Three: The Industrial Revolution, examining the transformation of asbestos from rare curiosity to mass industrial commodity between 1828-1900. The episode documents the boiler explosion problem (159 explosions in 1880 alone; dozens killed per year by flying metal) that drove rapid adoption of asbestos insulation as a "miracle fix"—trading visible, public deaths from explosions for invisible, delayed deaths from worker exposure. Quebec asbestos production exploded 200-fold in 22 years (1878: 50 tonnes → 1890s: 10,000 tonnes), yet no contemporaneous records document worker wages, hours, or injuries—a pattern of labor invisibility that environmental historians have characterized as treating workers as expendable commodities within the mining economy.[1] Origin mythology (Fecteau's blueberry discovery, Johns's tea kettle) obscures industrial history. Founder Henry Ward Johns died in 1898 of probable asbestosis—killed by his own product—yet the company merged with Manville and continued expansion uninterrupted. The episode closes with the first documented medical case: Dr. H. Montague Murray's 1899 examination of a 33-year-old asbestos textile worker who reported all ten coworkers dead in their thirties; Murray's 1900 autopsy documented asbestos fibers in lung tissue, creating the first written medical record of occupational asbestos disease—despite coworker exposure occurring decades earlier.

Full Episode Transcript

COLD OPEN - THE FIREPROOF MINERAL LOST TO FIRE

HOST 1: The fireproof mineral. Lost to fire.

HOST 2: Run that back.

HOST 1: 1828. Someone—we don't know who—files the first American patent for asbestos insulation. Wrapping steam engines in rock that doesn't burn. Brilliant idea. Changed everything.

HOST 2: And we don't know who.

HOST 1: Because in 1836, the U.S. Patent Office burned down. Nine thousand, nine hundred fifty-seven patents. Eight years of American invention. Gone.

HOST 2: Including the asbestos guy.

HOST 1: History remembers the product. Not the person.

HOST 2: That's going to become a pattern.

HOST 1: It is.

SEGMENT 1: SPONSOR INTRODUCTION

HOST 2: Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making is brought to you by Danziger and De Llano, a nationwide mesothelioma law firm. For over thirty years, they've helped families facing an asbestos diagnosis understand their options and find answers. If you or someone you love is dealing with mesothelioma, visit dandell.com.

SEGMENT 2: SERIES RECAP AND ARC INTRODUCTION

HOST 1: Before we go further, I want to do something we haven't done before.

HOST 2: Which is?

HOST 1: Step back. Show you the map. Because this episode—Episode 10—marks a turning point. Not just in the story, but in how we're telling it.

HOST 2: A milestone.

HOST 1: If you've been with us since Episode 1, you've now heard nine episodes spanning forty-five hundred years. And if you're just joining us—welcome. You can start here. But I want to show you where we've been.

HOST 2: The full picture.

HOST 1: We've been telling this story in arcs. Each arc covers a different era. Each arc asks a different question about how asbestos went from geological curiosity to industrial catastrophe.

HOST 2: Arcs. That's new.

HOST 1: Arc One was "Ancient Origins." Episodes 1 through 6. The question: Did the ancients know asbestos was deadly?

HOST 2: Spoiler: they didn't.

HOST 1: They couldn't have. But that's the conclusion. Here's how we got there. Episode 1: Finnish pottery fragments from 2700 BCE—the oldest evidence of humans using asbestos. Episode 2: The ancient Greeks encounter a rock that doesn't burn. Pausanias describing a golden wick that never needs replacing. Episode 3: Religious uses. Temple lamps. The idea that something fireproof must be holy.

HOST 2: The beginning of the myth.

HOST 1: Episode 4 was the big myth-bust. Everyone cites Pliny the Elder—"Roman workers wore bladder masks because they knew asbestos was deadly."

HOST 2: Pliny.

HOST 1: We went back to the Latin. He was describing cinnabar workers. Mercury miners. Different mineral, different chapter, wrong citation repeated for a century.

HOST 2: Same with Strabo.

HOST 1: His "sickness of the lungs" was about arsenic mines. Not asbestos. Episode 5: Why did asbestos stay rare for 4,000 years? Trade routes. Luxury pricing. A Roman text comparing asbestos prices to exceptional pearls.

HOST 2: Too expensive to kill people with.

HOST 1: Exactly. And Episode 6: The archaeological record. No mesothelioma in ancient remains. The evidence for what they actually knew—which wasn't much.

HOST 2: Arc One's conclusion.

HOST 1: The ancients couldn't have known. The exposure was too rare. The latency period—20 to 50 years—was too long. Their lifespans were too short. You can't connect cause and effect when everyone dies of something else first.

HOST 2: And then we jumped forward. Medieval.

HOST 1: Arc Two: "Medieval Myths and Renaissance Confusion." Episodes 7 through 9. The question: How did asbestos become wrapped in legend? And who profited? The Letter of Prester John—a twelfth-century forgery. Con artists selling holy relics. The Charlemagne tablecloth story.

HOST 2: Which turned out to be completely fabricated.

HOST 1: First appears a thousand years after Charlemagne died. No contemporary source mentions it. Episode 8: Marco Polo. 1298. He actually visits an asbestos mine in China. Explicitly writes: this is a rock, not a salamander.

HOST 2: And nobody believes him.

HOST 1: Because he was a merchant. And the encyclopedias were written by scholars who'd never left Europe. Episode 9: Thomas Browne finally kills the salamander myth. 1646.

HOST 2: "It dieth immediately therein."

HOST 1: You love that line.

HOST 2: I really do.

HOST 1: Three hundred fifty years after Marco Polo said the same thing.

SEGMENT 3: ARC THREE BEGINS - THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

HOST 1: So that's nine episodes. Forty-five hundred years of asbestos as curiosity. Rare. Expensive. Wrapped in legend. And then—

HOST 2: And then we get to Arc Three.

HOST 1: Arc Three. "The Industrial Revolution." And this is where everything changes. We spent nine episodes on forty-five hundred years. The next five episodes? About a hundred years. 1828 to the 1920s.

HOST 2: Tighter focus.

HOST 1: Much tighter. Because in that century, asbestos goes from rare enough to fool medieval royalty to cheap enough to wrap every steam pipe in America.

HOST 2: The mines open.

HOST 1: Quebec. Russia. South Africa. Production explodes. By 1900, Quebec alone is producing 10,000 tonnes a year.

HOST 2: From how much?

HOST 1: 1878? Fifty tonnes.

HOST 2: Two hundred times. In twenty-two years.

HOST 1: In twenty-two years. And for the first time in human history—large numbers of people start breathing it. Every day. For decades.

HOST 2: So we have better records now. Industrial age. Paper trails.

HOST 1: Yes and no. We have meticulous records of production volumes. Patent filings. Corporate mergers. Stock prices.

HOST 2: But?

HOST 1: But the workers? The people in the mines and factories? Almost nothing.

HOST 2: Nothing?

HOST 1: We searched. Academic databases. Government archives. Quebec provincial records. And here's what we found for the entire 19th century: No wage rates. No working hours. No injury records from the mines. No newspaper accounts of conditions.

HOST 2: How is that possible?

HOST 1: Because workers were illiterate. Because there were no unions yet. Because their lives weren't considered historically important. Because—and this matters—there was no one whose job it was to count them.

HOST 2: And the conspiracy?

HOST 1: The conspiracy doesn't start with what companies knew. It starts with who they didn't bother counting. The bodies were always there. Someone just had to decide they mattered.

KEY CONCEPT - DOCUMENTARY INVISIBILITY OF WORKERS:

  • Definition: Systematic absence of worker documentation (wages, hours, injuries) in industrial records while production volumes are meticulously documented
  • Industrial-era documentation: Abundant corporate records (production volumes, patent filings, mergers, stock prices)
  • Worker documentation: Absent for entire 19th century asbestos industry
  • Searched sources: Academic databases; government archives; Quebec provincial records
  • Documentation findings: Zero wage rates; zero working hours; zero injury records; zero newspaper accounts
  • Mechanism of invisibility: Workers illiterate (unable to create written records); no unions (no institutional documentation); lives not considered historically important; no institutional job tasked with counting
  • Historical consequence: Bodies accumulated without documentation; deaths unmeasurable; exposure untracked; corporate liability unestablishable from worker perspective
  • Conspiracy definition: Not what companies knew (hazards), but who they didn't count (workers); absence as active choice

SEGMENT 4: THE BOILER PROBLEM - WHY INDUSTRY NEEDED ASBESTOS

HOST 1: Let's talk about scale. Before the 1800s, asbestos manufacturing was artisanal. A German physician spinning it into cloth. Italian craftsmen making paper. The Paris Opera installing a fire curtain backstage.

HOST 2: One-offs.

HOST 1: Curiosities. Maybe a few dozen people exposed in any given year. Then the Industrial Revolution needed steam.

HOST 2: And steam means pressure.

HOST 1: Here's the calculus. The higher the pressure, the more efficient the engine. The more efficient the engine, the more money you make. So owners push the pressure up.

HOST 2: Until something gives.

HOST 1: Boilers. The Industrial Revolution runs on steam. And steam means pressure. And pressure means—

HOST 2: Explosions.

HOST 1: 1853. New York. A man named Thomas Reily is walking home in broad daylight. Smoking his pipe. His wife is standing at their door, watching him come up the street.

HOST 2: Okay.

HOST 1: A boiler explodes. Not on his street. A different street. A piece of metal flies through the air, hits him in the head. He dies two days later.

HOST 2: And the coroner's jury?

HOST 1: Blamed a man in Canada who built the boiler. Couldn't identify him. Didn't matter. Accidental death.

HOST 2: Of course.

HOST 1: By 1880, 159 boiler explosions in a single year. Over 2,000 in the next decade. People scalded, crushed, hit by flying metal blocks away from the blast.

HOST 2: So they needed a solution.

HOST 1: They needed insulation. Something that could wrap a boiler, hold the heat in, keep the pressure stable, and not catch fire.

HOST 2: Asbestos.

HOST 1: The miracle fix. Exposed workers to the insulation instead of exposing bystanders to explosions.

HOST 2: Traded one way of dying for another.

HOST 1: Except boiler explosions killed dozens per year. Asbestos would kill hundreds of thousands.

HOST 2: The cure was worse than the disease.

HOST 1: By orders of magnitude. And nobody would connect those deaths for another fifty years.

HOST 2: So someone looks at a steam engine and thinks—

HOST 1: "What if we wrapped it in rock that doesn't burn?"

HOST 2: 1828. Name unknown.

HOST 1: Lost to fire.

NAMED ENTITY - THOMAS REILY (BOILER EXPLOSION VICTIM, 1853):

  • Name: Thomas Reily
  • Location: New York
  • Date of incident: 1853
  • Circumstance: Walking home in daylight; smoking pipe; wife watching from door
  • Cause of death: Flying metal fragment from boiler explosion (different street)
  • Time to death: Two days after incident
  • Coroner's verdict: Accidental death
  • Accountability: Boiler builder (in Canada) blamed but unidentifiable
  • Historical significance: Representative casualty of pre-insulated-boiler era

KEY FACTS - BOILER EXPLOSIONS AND INDUSTRIAL CASUALTIES:

  • 1853: Thomas Reily killed by flying metal fragment from distant boiler explosion
  • 1880: 159 documented boiler explosions in single year
  • 1880-1890: Over 2,000 boiler explosions in decade
  • Casualty types: Scalding; crushing injuries; flying metal impact (bystanders in vicinity)
  • Geographic scope: Risk extended beyond industrial sites to surrounding areas (Thomas Reily example)
  • Solution demand: Need for boiler insulation to stabilize pressure, reduce explosions
  • Asbestos adoption: Response to visible, immediate boiler explosion hazard
  • Trade-off: Replaced acute explosion deaths (dozens per year visible to public) with chronic exposure deaths (hundreds of thousands of workers; deaths delayed 20-50 years; invisible to public)

KEY CONCEPT - VISIBLE VS. INVISIBLE HARM TRADES:

  • Definition: Replacement of visible, immediate workplace hazards with invisible, delayed occupational hazards
  • Boiler explosion case: Public visibility (explosions visible to bystanders, newspaper accounts, casualties immediate) vs. asbestos visibility (worker exposure invisible, cumulative lung disease delayed, casualties decades later)
  • Mortality comparison: Boiler explosions = dozens per year (acute); asbestos = hundreds of thousands over century (chronic)
  • Attribution difficulty: Boiler explosion cause easily attributed to equipment failure; asbestos causation obscured by 20-50 year latency (workers displaced, records lost, causal connection unrecognizable)
  • Corporate calculation: Hazard that affects workers invisible to public and shareholders; hazard that affects bystanders visible and affects insurance costs

SEGMENT 5: QUEBEC'S ASBESTOS BOOM

HOST 1: 1876. Quebec. A farmer named Joseph Fecteau is picking blueberries.

HOST 2: Blueberries.

HOST 1: According to the story—and I want to be clear, this is the story as it gets told—Fecteau takes a break from cutting hay. Wanders into a field. Notices a greenish rock with unusual fibers.

HOST 2: And he just scrapes it with his fingernail?

HOST 1: With his fingernail. Or his pocket knife, depending on who's telling it. Shows the sample to a man named Roger Ward. Ward has it analyzed.

HOST 2: And?

HOST 1: Asbestos. Chrysotile. "White gold," they'll call it later.

HOST 2: Hold on. "According to the story."

HOST 1: Right. This is where I need to flag something. We searched for a primary source on the blueberry story. A contemporary newspaper account. A letter. A geological survey report from the 1870s or 1880s.

HOST 2: And?

HOST 1: Nothing. The first documented appearance of the blueberry detail is from the 2000s. Over a century after it supposedly happened.

HOST 2: So it might be true—

HOST 1: It might be true. The core facts check out: Fecteau existed. The discovery was 1876. Ward purchased mining rights. But the narrative details—the blueberries, the fingernail—that has hallmarks of retrospective mythology. The kind of origin story companies like to tell.

HOST 2: Like Johns using his wife's tea kettle.

HOST 1: Exactly like that. We'll get there.

HOST 2: "Follow the story back to its source."

HOST 1: Always. Here's what we can verify. June 8, 1878: Johnson Brothers obtain mining rights in Thetford Township. Lot 27, Range VI. That's documented.

HOST 2: What about Ward?

HOST 1: Roger Ward—and this is interesting—wasn't an "Irish fur trader" like some sources claim. Land records show he was born in Lower Ireland Township, Quebec. Not Ireland the country. Lower Ireland Township. Had logging rights in the area.

HOST 2: They saw "Lower Ireland" and stopped reading.

HOST 1: Same mistake as Pliny.

HOST 2: Different century, same laziness.

HOST 1: Romanticized. He purchased 218 acres at a dollar an acre. Sold about 100 acres to the Boston Asbestos Packing Company for $4,000.

HOST 2: From $218 to $4,000. In two years.

HOST 1: And that's before the real money. By 1881, the Jeffrey Mine opens. By 1889, the Quebec Central Railway reaches Thetford Mines.

HOST 2: So they can ship it out.

HOST 1: At scale. We can tell you exactly how many tonnes of asbestos left Thetford Mines in 1889. We cannot tell you a single worker's name.

HOST 2: They had accountants.

HOST 1: Very good accountants.

HOST 2: Just nobody counting coffins.

HOST 1: By the 1890s, US prices dropped from $128 a ton to $30 a ton. Canadian supply flooded the market.

HOST 2: And a lot of workers going into those mines.

NAMED ENTITY - JOSEPH FECTEAU (DISCOVERER, QUESTIONABLE DOCUMENTATION):

  • Name: Joseph Fecteau
  • Occupation: Farmer
  • Location: Quebec
  • Discovery date: 1876
  • Alleged discovery circumstances: Blueberry picking; break from hay cutting; noticed greenish rock with unusual fibers
  • Material identified: Asbestos (chrysotile)
  • Named source claim: Roger Ward (had material analyzed)
  • Historical verification: Fecteau existed (confirmed); discovery date 1876 (confirmed); Ward purchased mining rights (confirmed)
  • Narrative details verification: Blueberries, fingernail discovery (NO CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTATION; first appearance 2000s, century later)
  • Classification: Core facts verified; narrative details appear to be retrospective mythology

NAMED ENTITY - ROGER WARD (MINING RIGHTS PURCHASER):

  • Name: Roger Ward
  • Claims about origin: "Irish fur trader" (unverified by land records)
  • Land records documentation: Born in Lower Ireland Township, Quebec (not Ireland the country)
  • Occupation: Logging rights holder
  • Land transaction: Purchased 218 acres at $1 per acre
  • Sale to Boston Asbestos Packing Company: ~100 acres for $4,000
  • Financial gain: $218 initial investment → $4,000 sale in two years
  • Historical significance: Early investor in Quebec asbestos field prior to industrial scale-up

KEY FACTS - QUEBEC ASBESTOS DISCOVERY AND DEVELOPMENT (1876-1890):

  • Discovery: Joseph Fecteau (1876); questionable narrative details
  • Material: Chrysotile asbestos ("white gold")
  • First documented mining rights: Johnson Brothers (June 8, 1878, Thetford Township, Lot 27, Range VI)
  • Mining expansion: Jeffrey Mine opens (1881)
  • Transportation infrastructure: Quebec Central Railway reaches Thetford Mines (1889)
  • Production scale: 1878 = 50 tonnes/year; 1890s = 10,000 tonnes/year (200-fold increase in ~22 years)
  • Price collapse: 1880s = $128/ton; 1890s = $30/ton (market saturation; Canadian supply flooding)
  • Documented metrics: Production volumes (exact); worker names (none)
  • Documentation gap: Accountants tracked tonnes; nobody tracked workers

KEY CONCEPT - ORIGIN MYTHOLOGY AND CORPORATE NARRATIVE:

  • Definition: Retrospective construction of company origin stories featuring humble, pastoral, or domestic circumstances
  • Quebec asbestos case: Blueberry discovery (first documented appearance in 2000s, 125+ years after alleged discovery)
  • Pattern examples: Apple garage origin; Amazon basement origin; Henry Johns tea kettle (later in episode)
  • Function: Transform capitalist enterprise origin (capital investment, exploitation) into romantic narrative (discovery, accident, fate)
  • Verification challenge: Core facts verifiable (people existed, dates occurred, transactions happened); narrative details unverifiable (why did they discover it, what was the moment like, what motivated them)
  • Historical consequence: General public learns romantic narrative; scholars/researchers must excavate actual verifiable facts from mythology

SEGMENT 6: THE DOCUMENTARY VOID - MISSING WORKER RECORDS

HOST 2: So we have production volumes. Shipping records. Corporate history.

HOST 1: All documented. Meticulously.

HOST 2: And the workers?

HOST 1: We found photographs. Four, maybe five, from the entire 19th century. Dates uncertain. One from 1919 showing women and children—

HOST 2: Children?

HOST 1: "Cobbers." That was the term. They hand-sorted ore with hammers. Separated the asbestos fibers from the rock.

HOST 2: No protective equipment.

HOST 1: None documented. No dust control measures documented. No injury records.

HOST 2: And we're supposed to believe nobody noticed they were getting sick?

HOST 1: The latency period for asbestos diseases is 20 to 50 years. A worker exposed in 1880 wouldn't show symptoms until 1900 or later. By which point—

HOST 2: They might be dead of something else. Or just... gone.

HOST 1: And nobody was tracking them anyway. The bodies were always there. But if no one's job was to count them—

HOST 2: Then they don't exist in the historical record.

HOST 1: They exist. Just not in writing.

HOST 2: Lost to fire. Lost to nobody writing anything down.

HOST 1: Same result.

KEY FACTS - 19TH-CENTURY ASBESTOS MINING WORKER DOCUMENTATION:

  • Photographic evidence: 4-5 photographs from entire 19th century; dates uncertain
  • Dated photograph: 1919 (exceeds 19th century; shows women and children workers)
  • Job titles documented: "Cobbers" (hand-sorting ore)
  • Work methods: Manual hammer-based separation of asbestos from rock
  • Protective equipment: None documented
  • Dust control measures: None documented
  • Injury records: None found in 19th century documentation
  • Corporate records: Production volumes exact and meticulous; worker records absent
  • Information asymmetry: 200-fold production increase documented; workers completely undocumented

NAMED ENTITY - COBBERS (CHILD WORKERS):

  • Job title: "Cobbers"
  • Task: Hand-sorting asbestos ore with hammers
  • Separation process: Manual fiber separation from rock using hand tools
  • Demographics: Women and children (documented in 1919 photograph)
  • Equipment: Hammers (minimal tools)
  • Protective measures: None documented
  • Occupational hazard: Asbestos dust inhalation during ore sorting
  • Historical documentation: Single photograph from 1919; no written records of conditions, wages, or health outcomes

KEY CONCEPT - LATENCY PERIOD AND HISTORICAL CAUSATION:

  • Definition: Asbestos diseases appear 20-50 years after exposure; historical documentation of worker illness impossible during exposure period
  • Timeline example: Exposure 1880 → symptoms appear 1900-1930 → diagnosis and documentation rare
  • Historical consequence: Worker cohorts exposed in 1880 would die (1900-1930) without documented causation to asbestos
  • Compounding factor: Workers died from something else or relocated; death records not connected to exposure decades earlier
  • Information loss mechanism: No contemporaneous injury documentation → no causal attribution → no historical record of exposure consequence
  • Institutional consequence: Absence of documented causation during company growth period allowed companies to deny knowledge of hazard

SEGMENT 7: HENRY WARD JOHNS - THE FOUNDER KILLED BY HIS OWN PRODUCT

HOST 1: While Quebec is transforming into the asbestos capital of the world, something's happening in New York.

HOST 2: Let me guess. Somebody's filing a patent.

HOST 1: 1858. A twenty-one-year-old named Henry Ward Johns rents a basement in New York City. And according to company legend—and again, this is company legend—

HOST 2: I'm bracing.

HOST 1: He uses his wife's clothes wringer and tea kettle to process asbestos into roofing material.

HOST 2: The tea kettle.

HOST 1: The story appears only on the Johns Manville corporate website. The 1868 trade catalog? No mention of any tea kettle. No contemporary source documents it.

HOST 2: Same pattern as the blueberries.

HOST 1: Every company origin story has a garage or a kitchen appliance. Apple started in a garage. Amazon started in a garage.

HOST 2: And asbestos started with a tea kettle and some blueberries.

HOST 1: It's never "I had capital and a business plan."

HOST 2: Always humble. Pastoral. A farmer. A basement. A wife's kitchen equipment.

HOST 1: Charming origin story that emerges decades later. What we can verify: 1868, Johns files a real patent. Patent number 76,773. "Improvement in Compounds for Roofing and Other Purposes." Mix asbestos powder with lime and water. Create fire-resistant roofing compound.

HOST 2: That one has a number.

HOST 1: And Johns builds a company. H.W. Johns Manufacturing. By the 1880s, he's one of the largest asbestos manufacturers in America. Fire-resistant shingles. Insulation. Pipe coverings.

HOST 2: Success story.

HOST 1: Until 1898.

HOST 2: What happens in 1898?

HOST 1: Henry Ward Johns dies. Cause of death—according to multiple sources—probable asbestosis. "Dust phthisis pneumonitis" in the language of the time.

HOST 2: The founder of the American asbestos industry—

HOST 1: Died of asbestos exposure. From his own product.

HOST 2: Did anyone notice?

HOST 1: Here's what happened next. The company merged with Manville. Became Johns-Manville. Got bigger.

HOST 2: So the answer is no.

HOST 1: The product worked. The product sold. The founder was dead. Business continued.

HOST 2: That's the whole conspiracy in miniature.

HOST 1: The man who invented the industry. Killed by the industry. And the industry just... kept going. What the corporations did with the warnings that were already public—that's next episode.

NAMED ENTITY - HENRY WARD JOHNS (1836-1898):

  • Birth: 1836
  • Age at company founding: 21 years old (1857-1858)
  • Founding location: Basement in New York City
  • Alleged founding narrative: Used wife's clothes wringer and tea kettle for asbestos processing
  • Narrative source: Johns-Manville corporate website only
  • Narrative verification: No contemporary source documents tea kettle detail; 1868 trade catalog makes no mention
  • Real patent: Filed 1868; Patent Number 76,773; "Improvement in Compounds for Roofing and Other Purposes"
  • Patent innovation: Mix asbestos powder with lime and water; create fire-resistant roofing compound
  • Company founding: H.W. Johns Manufacturing Company
  • Business growth: By 1880s = largest asbestos manufacturer in America
  • Product range: Fire-resistant shingles; insulation; pipe coverings
  • Death: 1898
  • Cause of death: Probable asbestosis ("Dust phthisis pneumonitis" medical terminology of era)
  • Death source: Multiple historical sources document occupational origin
  • Consequence: Company merged with Manville; became Johns-Manville (later Johns-Manville Corporation, major asbestos manufacturer)
  • Historical significance: Founder of American asbestos industry died of exposure to his own product; industrial expansion continued despite founder's death

NAMED ENTITY - H.W. JOHNS MANUFACTURING COMPANY (1858-1898):

  • Founded: 1858
  • Founder: Henry Ward Johns (age 21)
  • Original location: New York City basement
  • Patent: Number 76,773 (1868)
  • Patent innovation: Asbestos-lime-water roofing compound
  • Market expansion: By 1880s became largest American asbestos manufacturer
  • Products: Fire-resistant shingles; insulation products; pipe coverings
  • Market: Growing domestic demand for asbestos products
  • Founder's death: 1898 (probable asbestosis)
  • Corporate response to death: Merger with Manville (no interruption to business)
  • Post-merger: Became Johns-Manville Corporation; continued expansion

KEY FACTS - HENRY WARD JOHNS'S DEATH AND CORPORATE CONTINUITY:

  • Founder death: 1898 (probable asbestosis from occupational exposure)
  • Cause of death documentation: Multiple historical sources
  • Medical terminology: "Dust phthisis pneumonitis"
  • Corporate response: Merger with Manville
  • Business impact: No interruption; expansion continued
  • Industry lesson: Founder's death from product exposure did not trigger safety review or product modification
  • Historical narrative: "Product worked. Product sold. Founder dead. Business continued."
  • Conspiracy pattern: Individual death (founder) not sufficient to trigger institutional response (safety measures)

KEY CONCEPT - FOUNDER MORTALITY AS SUPPRESSED KNOWLEDGE:

  • Definition: Knowledge of founder death from occupational exposure suppressed/unutilized in corporate decision-making
  • Henry Johns case: Founder died of probable asbestosis (occupational disease); company continued expansion without safety modifications
  • Suppression mechanism: Founder death treated as personal misfortune; not connected to product danger; not used to inform occupational safety
  • Alternative scenario (not realized): Founder death could have triggered investigation into product hazards; implementation of worker protections
  • Historical consequence: Company continued to expose workers without acknowledging known hazard (founder's death)
  • Institutional lesson: Even founder-level knowledge of occupational hazard insufficient to change corporate behavior if hazard not documented/quantified/attributed in writing

SEGMENT 8: DR. MURRAY'S PATIENT - THE FIRST DOCUMENTED CASE (1899)

HOST 1: So that's where we are. 1898. The industry exists. The product works. The founder is dead from breathing it.

HOST 2: And the workers?

HOST 1: The bodies are beginning to accumulate. But there's no one to count them. Not yet.

HOST 2: When does that change?

HOST 1: 1899. London. A thirty-three-year-old man walks into Charing Cross Hospital complaining of bronchitis. He's been working in an asbestos textile factory for fourteen years. Started at nineteen.

HOST 2: Okay.

HOST 1: He tells the doctor—a physician named H. Montague Murray—that all of his coworkers have died. Ten of them. All in their thirties. All previously healthy. All the same symptoms.

HOST 2: He knew.

HOST 1: He knew something was killing them. He just didn't know what. A year later, he's dead too. Murray does the autopsy. Finds heavy scarring in the lungs. And asbestos fibers embedded in the tissue.

HOST 2: The first documented case.

HOST 1: Someone with medical authority finally writes it down. 1900. The bodies had been accumulating for decades. It just took that long for anyone to connect them.

HOST 2: Next time: The Corporate Architects.

HOST 1: Episode 11.

NAMED ENTITY - ASBESTOS TEXTILE WORKER (LONDON, 1899):

  • Age at presentation: 33 years old
  • Occupation: Asbestos textile factory worker
  • Work location: London (Charing Cross Hospital catchment area)
  • Tenure: 14 years (began age 19)
  • Presentation: Bronchitis symptoms
  • Occupational history: Started textile work at age 19; worked until age 33 (14 years continuous exposure)
  • Coworker status: Reports all 10 coworkers deceased
  • Coworker demographics: All died in their thirties
  • Coworker health history: All previously healthy
  • Coworker symptom similarity: All died with same symptoms
  • Worker knowledge: Recognized pattern (coworker deaths); attributed to occupational exposure; unable to identify specific cause
  • Medical evaluation: Examined by H. Montague Murray at Charing Cross Hospital (1899)
  • Clinical outcome: Died approximately one year after presentation (1900)
  • Autopsy findings: Heavy lung scarring; asbestos fibers embedded in lung tissue
  • Historical significance: First documented medical case of asbestos occupational disease

NAMED ENTITY - H. MONTAGUE MURRAY (PHYSICIAN, LONDON):

  • Name: H. Montague Murray
  • Title: Physician
  • Location: Charing Cross Hospital, London
  • Historical event: Examined asbestos textile worker (1899)
  • Medical action: Diagnosed occupational asbestos disease
  • Autopsy findings: Heavy lung scarring; asbestos fibers in lung tissue
  • Documentation: First published medical case of occupational asbestos exposure
  • Historical significance: Physician whose medical documentation created written record of occupational asbestos hazard
  • Publication: Medical case (1899-1900) documented and published in medical literature

NAMED ENTITY - CHARING CROSS HOSPITAL (LONDON):

  • Location: London
  • Significance in asbestos history: Site of first documented occupational asbestos disease case (1899)
  • Patient population: Asbestos textile factory workers (London area)
  • Physician: H. Montague Murray
  • Historical event: Medical documentation of asbestos textile worker with occupational disease and autopsy confirmation of asbestos fibers

KEY FACTS - FIRST DOCUMENTED ASBESTOS OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE (1899-1900):

  • Case date: 1899 (presentation); 1900 (death/autopsy)
  • Patient age: 33 years at presentation
  • Occupational tenure: 14 years in asbestos textile manufacturing
  • Presentation symptoms: Bronchitis
  • Coworker mortality pattern: 10 coworkers all deceased; all in thirties; all with same symptoms
  • Coworker occupational history: Likely similar (asbestos textile work)
  • Patient knowledge: Recognized occupational causation (pattern recognition); unable to identify specific agent
  • Physician: H. Montague Murray
  • Location: Charing Cross Hospital, London
  • Autopsy: Performed after patient death
  • Autopsy findings: Heavy lung scarring; asbestos fiber presence in lung tissue
  • Medical documentation: Published case; establishes documented record of occupational asbestos disease
  • Historical significance: Transitions asbestos hazard from undocumented (coworker pattern, worker intuition) to documented (medical authority, autopsy evidence)

KEY CONCEPT - COWORKER PATTERN RECOGNITION AND MEDICAL DOCUMENTATION:

  • Definition: Workers recognize occupational disease pattern before medical documentation; medical authority required to establish disease in historical record
  • London textile worker case: Worker observed coworker mortality pattern (10 deaths, same age, same symptoms); recognized occupational causation; lacked medical authority to document
  • Physician documentation: H. Murray's autopsy findings (asbestos fibers) provided material evidence connecting occupational exposure to documented disease
  • Information transformation: Anecdotal worker knowledge (10 coworkers died; same symptoms) → Medical documentation (autopsy-confirmed asbestos fibers) → Historical record (first documented case)
  • Institutional requirement: Medical authority (physician) required to establish disease in medical/historical record; worker knowledge insufficient despite accurate pattern recognition
  • Consequence: 1899 documentation marks beginning of documented occupational asbestos disease; disease existed decades earlier (worker exposures 1850s+) but undocumented

SEGMENT 9: EPISODE CLOSING AND ARC TRANSITION

HOST 2: Ten episodes. We've covered forty-five hundred years of asbestos as curiosity and myth. And now we're watching it become something else.

HOST 1: An industry.

HOST 2: An industry that didn't count its workers. That kept meticulous records of production volumes and none of injury rates. That let the bodies accumulate in silence.

HOST 1: Until someone started writing them down.

HOST 2: If you're listening to this and thinking about someone—a parent, a spouse, yourself—who worked in one of those industries where nobody kept records of what the workers breathed...

HOST 1: The company records exist. Production volumes. Shipping manifests. Insurance policies. The paper trail is there.

HOST 2: Someone just has to know where to look. And what to do with it.

HOST 1: Paul Danziger and Rod De Llano have spent thirty years turning that documentation into cases. Finding where the exposure happened. Holding the companies accountable.

HOST 2: The asbestos industry spent a century not counting workers. This firm has spent three decades making sure those workers count now.

HOST 1: Dave Foster, Anna Jackson, the whole team—they help families navigate what comes next while the attorneys build the case.

HOST 2: Dandell.com.

HOST 1: Dandell.com.

HOST 2: Next week: Episode 11. The Corporate Architects.

Key Concepts

Documentary invisibility of workers
Production volumes meticulously documented; worker wages, hours, and injuries completely undocumented for entire 19th century
Visible vs. invisible harm trade
Boiler explosions (visible, public, immediate) replaced by asbestos exposure (invisible, occupational, delayed); mortality ratio heavily favors asbestos (hundreds of thousands vs. dozens per year)
Latency period and historical causation problem
20-50 year disease latency makes contemporary documentation of causation impossible; workers died (1900-1930) from exposures (1880-1910) without causal documentation
Origin mythology and corporate narrative
Blueberry discovery and tea kettle origin stories lack contemporary documentation; first appear decades/centuries later; serve function of romanticizing exploitative industries
Founder mortality as suppressed knowledge
Henry Johns death (1898) from probable asbestosis did not trigger corporate safety response; death treated as personal misfortune, not product danger
Medical documentation as historical gatekeeping
Worker knowledge of occupational disease pattern (10 coworkers dead, same symptoms) insufficient to establish disease in history without physician documentation; Murray's autopsy creates first historical record

Timeline

Date Event
1828 First American patent filed for asbestos insulation (patentee unknown; patent destroyed in 1836 Patent Office fire)
1836 U.S. Patent Office fire; 9,957 patents destroyed (including asbestos insulation patent)
1853 Thomas Reily killed by flying metal fragment from boiler explosion (distant street)
1858 Henry Ward Johns (age 21) rents basement in New York City; founds asbestos business (company legend: uses wife's tea kettle; no contemporary documentation)
1868 Henry Ward Johns files patent 76,773 for asbestos-lime-water roofing compound
1868 Trade catalog published; no mention of tea kettle origin story
1876 Joseph Fecteau alleged blueberry discovery in Quebec (first documented appearance of narrative: 2000s, 125+ years later)
1878 Johnson Brothers obtain mining rights Thetford Township (June 8); Quebec production = 50 tonnes/year
1878-1890 Production expansion: 50 tonnes → 10,000 tonnes (200-fold increase in 22 years)
1880 159 boiler explosions documented in single year
1880-1890 Over 2,000 boiler explosions in decade
1881 Jeffrey Mine opens (Quebec)
1880s H.W. Johns Manufacturing becomes largest American asbestos manufacturer
1889 Quebec Central Railway reaches Thetford Mines (transportation infrastructure for scale)
1890s U.S. asbestos prices drop from $128/ton to $30/ton (market saturation; Canadian supply flooding)
1898 Henry Ward Johns dies (probable asbestosis; "dust phthisis pneumonitis")
1898 H.W. Johns Manufacturing merges with Manville; becomes Johns-Manville
1899 Asbestos textile worker (age 33) walks into Charing Cross Hospital, London; reports 10 coworkers dead in thirties
1900 Dr. H. Montague Murray performs autopsy; documents asbestos fibers in lung tissue; first documented medical case of occupational asbestos disease

Named Entities

Historical Individuals - Mining/Production:

  • Joseph Fecteau (alleged discoverer; farmer; 1876; questionable narrative)
  • Roger Ward (mining rights purchaser; born Lower Ireland Township, Quebec; logging rights; land transaction)
  • Johnson Brothers (mining rights obtainer; June 8, 1878)
  • Henry Ward Johns (1836-1898; founder of American asbestos industry; died probable asbestosis)

Historical Individuals - Casualties:

  • Thomas Reily (boiler explosion victim; New York, 1853)
  • Asbestos textile worker (age 33; London; presented 1899; died 1900)

Historical Individuals - Medical/Scientific:

  • H. Montague Murray (physician; Charing Cross Hospital, London; documented first occupational asbestos disease case, 1899-1900)

Organizations - Mining/Manufacturing:

  • H.W. Johns Manufacturing Company (1858-1898; largest American asbestos manufacturer by 1880s)
  • Johnson Brothers (mining rights holders, Quebec)
  • Boston Asbestos Packing Company (purchased Quebec mining rights)
  • Johns-Manville Corporation (formed 1898 merger of H.W. Johns Manufacturing + Manville)

Organizations - Healthcare:

  • Charing Cross Hospital (London; site of first documented occupational asbestos disease case)

Organizations - Transportation:

  • Quebec Central Railway (reached Thetford Mines, 1889; enabled scale shipping)

Organizations - Government/Institutional:

  • U.S. Patent Office (fire destroyed 9,957 patents, 1836; included asbestos insulation patent)

Locations:

  • Quebec/Thetford Township/Thetford Mines (asbestos mining region; production center)
  • New York City (H.W. Johns Manufacturing location; business founding)
  • London, England (asbestos textile industry; Charing Cross Hospital)
  • Boston (Boston Asbestos Packing Company)

Products:

  • Asbestos insulation (first American patent, 1828)
  • Fire-resistant roofing shingles
  • Asbestos-lime-water roofing compound (Johns patent 76,773)
  • Pipe coverings/insulation
  • Asbestos textile products


Geographic Scope

  • New York City: Henry Ward Johns basement (1858); H.W. Johns Manufacturing location
  • Quebec/Thetford Township: Asbestos mining region; 200-fold production increase; Johnson Brothers mining rights; Jeffrey Mine; Quebec Central Railway
  • Boston: Boston Asbestos Packing Company (purchased Quebec mining rights)
  • Canada (general): Boiler builder blamed for Thomas Reily explosion (unidentifiable)
  • London, England: Charing Cross Hospital (first documented asbestos disease case, 1899)
  • United States (national): Boiler explosion documentation (1880s); asbestos product market saturation
  • Quebec/Russia/South Africa: Global mining expansion (Arc Three context)

Referenced Occupational Diseases

  • Asbestos-related bronchitis
  • Dust phthisis pneumonitis (occupational asbestos disease; medical terminology of 1890s)
  • Lung scarring (fibrosis)
  • Asbestos fiber embedding in lung tissue

Statistics

References

  1. ↑ Workers as Commodities: The Case of Asbestos, Quebec, Network in Canadian History & Environment (NiCHE)

External Resources

Government and Regulatory Sources:

Asbestos Exposure and Health:

Compensation and Legal:

Series Navigation

Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making — Arc 3: The Industrial Revolution
Previous: Episode 09: The Myth That Wouldn't Die Episode 10: The Mines Open Next: Episode 11: The Corporate Architects

About This Series

Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making is a 52-episode documentary podcast tracing the complete history of asbestos from 4700 BCE to the 2024 EPA ban. The series is produced by Danziger & De Llano, LLP, a nationwide mesothelioma law firm with over 30 years of experience and nearly $2 billion recovered for asbestos victims.

If you or a loved one were exposed to asbestos, contact Danziger & De Llano for a free case evaluation. Call (855) 699-5441.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is Episode 10 of the Asbestos podcast about?

Episode 10 marks the premiere of Arc Three: The Industrial Revolution, examining the transformation of asbestos from rare curiosity to mass industrial commodity between 1828-1900. The episode documents the boiler explosion problem (159 explosions in 1880 alone; dozens killed per year by flying metal) that drove rapid adoption of asbestos insulation as a "miracle fix"—trading visible, public deaths from explosions for invisible, delayed deaths from worker exposure. Quebec asbestos production exploded 200-fold in 22 years (1878: 50 tonnes → 1890s: 10,000 tonnes), yet no contemporaneous records document worker wages, hours, or injuries—a pattern of labor invisibility that environmental historians have characterized as treating workers as expendable commodities within the mining economy.

Where can I listen to the Asbestos podcast?

The Asbestos podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Amazon Music — all free. Search for 'Asbestos: A Conspiracy 4,500 Years in the Making' or use the links on any episode transcript page. The 52-episode series is produced by Danziger & De Llano, LLP, a nationwide mesothelioma law firm.

Mesothelioma is caused by asbestos exposure, and U.S. law provides multiple compensation pathways. Over $30 billion remains available through 60+ asbestos bankruptcy trust funds, with average payments of $300,000–$400,000. Victims may also pursue personal injury lawsuits, VA disability benefits (for veterans), or wrongful death claims. The statute of limitations is as short as 1 year in some states, so consulting a mesothelioma attorney promptly is critical. Danziger & De Llano has recovered nearly $2 billion for asbestos victims over 30+ years of practice.

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